What's Fate?
A few posts have got me thinking about this, and it's a thought that's been in my head for a while in other ways - mostly around the whole "if you're hacking, what are the 'safer' things to hack, and at what point are you mucking with the base assumptions of the system?"
Much like +Ryan Macklin's post, I tend to think of Fate as being a specific game, that does specific things. It can cover a wide variety of settings, but it does so in a very Fate-like way. There's things Fate is super-awesome at, and things that Fate isn't super-awesome at. When I want to do something that Fate isn't super-awesome at, I tend to just pull out a game that is super-awesome at that.
I don't consider that a negative on Fate in any way. I have a Jeep Wrangler. It's good at some things (transportation), awesome at other things (off-roading), and absolutely sucky at certain things (hauling lots of things, carrying lots of people, going fast). And making my Wrangler better at those things would almost necessarily make it worse at the things it does really well right now.
So I don't use Fate to play D&D. I might use Fate to run a game in a D&D setting, but I don't think it would feel much like the D&D game - I've previously described what I think it would be as more like "D&D: The Movie: The Game" (no, not the horrible movie, but an imaginary good one).
Yeah, I could hack Fate enough to run a passable "D&D game", but would it still be Fate in any recognizable way? I don't think it would, because the core questions and assumptions of D&D are very different than those of Fate. Which, again, isn't a knock on Fate or on D&D, much like saying that my Wrangler isn't as fast as a Ferrari isn't a knock on my Wrangler.
So, what are the things that I consider to be "Fate"? Not as some kind of purity test, but rather as a more general gauge - if I see a Fate build that hits 95% of these, it'll probably "feel like" Fate to me. But if I see something that's ostensibly Fate that only hits 10% of things, it probably won't push those Fate buttons very well.
Proactive characters
This is, to me, one of the biggest. Fate characters are proactive. They make things happen. The game progresses as a result of their actions.
This seems like all games, but it's really not - it's an argument that railroading doesn't belong in Fate games. If you know what's going to happen, then at some level the characters aren't proactive. They're just looking for the magic "next scene" button. They have no real agency. And some games and styles are built heavily upon this kind of game structure. Which is fine - I just don't necessarily think it's a good fit for Fate.
It also makes it a good question whether investigation-based games are a super-awesome fit for Fate, either. Investigation-based games are usually about following the breadcrumb that is left, which is often not very proactive on the part of the players. It also makes the level of narrative control that Fate gives players somewhat problematic.
Competent characters
Fate characters are competent. They're good at stuff. Maybe not the best in the world, but whatever they're good at, they're good at it. They're not bumbling amateurs.
Skills, aspects, compels, invokes
To me, this is the core of Fate. You can get rid of stunts and still have it "feel like" Fate, but if these four elements don't work more or less how they do in Core, it doesn't feel much like Fate to me.
The phase trio
This has been around, and almost unchanged, since SotC. It works, and how it generates interlinked characters is, to me, a pretty important part of the Fate experience.
Lack of charop
As a game, Fate seems to almost go out of its way to minimize character optimization. Discussion of what stunts do is directly opposed to the idea of "hey, let me find the combination of stuff that makes me awesome", as a general table veto is built into the process.
"Final" skills
One of the things I really appreciate about Fate is the idea that skills represent your final ability to influence a scene - not your base ability that's then modified by a gazillion other factors. This ties in pretty heavily with the charop point above.
Lack of emphasis on system mastery
Fate is, to me, not a game about learning to manipulate the game system. It's a game about the fiction (as in, the stuff we're imagining in our heads), not the rules. The rules get out of the way more than anything, and it's hard to have system mastery be important if you're trying to de-emphasize the system.
Attempts to make Fate "crunchy" (that is, to make system mastery a more important thing) to me make games feel less like Fate.
Branches, not gates
Scenes in Fate games to me work best as a series of possible branches. They're not challenges to be overcome. If there's a 95% chance of success at no cost, there's no real point in having a scene.
Focus on opportunity cost
This is a big one to me. Unlike games that focus on system mastery and overcoming challenges, Fate to me works best when opportunity cost is shoved in the players' faces. That's a question that appears over and over in Fate - spending Fate points to buy a victory, success at a cost, accepting Compels - all of these point directly at the idea of "how much do you want this, and what are you willing to give up to get it?"
If a Fate game de-emphasizes this, to me it starts to feel less like Fate. Hacks to Fate that do things like require the pre-spending of Fate Points or the like feel less-"Fate" to me.
A focus on what's important in the story, not modeling reality
If you think on most fiction, the weapon that a given combatant uses isn't particularly relevant most of the time. The fact that someone uses an axe vs. a sword isn't going to mean that they lose in a scene. Sure, there are special pieces of equipment, but they tend to be just that - special.
To me, a good Fate game approaches its systems in that way - what's actually important, in this genre? Do characters tend to lose fights because they're not armed with bigger weapons or sturdier armor? If not, then that shouldn't be how your game models it, either.
A good example of this is thinking about mecha. How many stats should a mech have, and how much of its combat ability should be based on it instead of its pilot? And that boils down to - 'what story are you telling'? If it's about the pilot, and a good pilot in a weak or mediocre mecha can still be an effective combatant, then the mecha should only have a modifying impact on the pilot's skills, and the story will focus around the pilots. But if the story should focus around the attainment of awesome mecha, then they should have a larger impact. It's not a matter of what's "realistic". It's a matter of "what impact does this have on the game, and what elements do I want to be important in the game?"
Active instead of passive bonuses
A big thing with Fate, to me, is the idea that most bonuses are active - they're the result of things that you do. This fits in with the "proactive" part of characters as well. This compares to other games where much of the game is focused on "how many bonuses can I find a way to make apply?" That can be a great type of game - but it ain't (to me) Fate.
Skills tied to results, not actions
Another biggie. In many games, using a skill means you're engaging in a specific task that may have a variable result. In Fate, I see it more as "I'm trying to accomplish this - do I succeed?" It seems subtle, but it's a pretty important point, and colors how a lot of mechanics get applied.
Bell curve results
Fate uses a randomization scheme that is heavily biased towards "average" results. It doesn't use a flat distribution. How that is specifically achieved, or exactly how biased it is, is somewhat more open - but a flat distribution doesn't feel like Fate to me.
Anyway, those are the main things I can think of, at least for now. I'm sure I'll add more later!
And these are just my opinions. They're not the word of God, and others will absolutely have different lists, and even things that they think I just got totally wrong. But, to me, this is kind of the core of what I consider to be "Fate" - and, if you look at it, a good predictor of what games I'll generally say don't feel "Fate-like" to me.
20131203 What’s Fate’A few posts have got me t...
Shared to the community Fate Core - Public
+1'd by: Jon Smejkal, Michael Sims, John Rogers, Mike Lindsey, Paul Vencill, Tim Noyce, Paul Kießhauer, Eden Brandeis, Julio Lopez, Bryan Thrall, Wade Rockett, Chip Dunning, Jean-Christophe Cubertafon, Sophie Lagace, Stuart McDermid, Phil Lewis, Antaeus Feldspar, Steve Ainsworth, Zach Hunt, Scott Lorch, Wil Hutton, David Silberstein, Shane Harsch, Brett Bowen, Didier Bretin, Sean Smith, Shea Valentine, Christopher Ruthenbeck
Err... I think there is a difference between Fate Core the RPG, and Fate Core the Game Engine. More on that later.
While FAE may never be able to emulate D&D as completely as D&D, I hate the D&D system and would have more fun coming as close to emulating D&D as FAE will allow me.
Call it a weakness, a Trouble Aspect, if you will, but I absolutely let myself get hung up on parts of a system that I don't like to the point where I will have less fun OR make my own fun by mocking the system.
Yes, I can be "that guy"...I tend to use a die roller on my iPad Mini at the D&D game in which I play where the background I use is the D&D logo in a circle with a line through it.
So, I don't for a moment think that FAE can do all, but it can do what I need it to well enough for me to maximize my fun.
This is one of the big ones to me. If a system can be mastered, there's always going to be a battle around the table on who has found the better secret tricks to squeeze out the most for themselves. And that will always lead to an air of hostility among players, and especially to the infamous "GM vs. Players" situation. Not to mention a lot of rules discussions and looking up things in various books.
But the rest of the list is just as important and valid. though I think I'll have to keep an eye out for "Active instead of passive bonuses". I knew what you meant as soon as I read it, but it's something I've never paid much attention to. Great food for thought.
I think one important thing you left out is the way players and GM work together. I've not seen that in any other game. It starts with setting and character creation, which I've seen brushed aside by a lot of groups I've played in. The GM creates a campaign at home, the players create individual characters at home and when they meet, they wonder how to get things to work together. Just the idea to spend the whole first session creating the setting and the characters together is a big part of what makes Fate great to me. So much so, that I think this should be a big part of every game, it's just so integral to everything that comes afterwards.
Basically, my post comes down to a few pretty simple things:
1) Different games are good at different things.
2) If a game changes enough, it probably shouldn't be called the "same game" any more.
3) A list of things that I think Fate is good at.
If you're disagreeing with point 1, then that's interesting. I certainly think it's possible to play the same "game" with different systems, and I think that a lot of people do exactly that and don't realize the breadth of play modes in the RPG space.
If you're disagreeing with point 2, then that's interesting as well, though it may be a case more of how we're defining what a particular game is than anything else. I could come up with a (probably long) series of simple changes that would over time turn Fate into something else, say BRP. At what point does attaching the label "Fate" to that game in its evolution no longer than make sense? For a label to have any kind of value whatsoever, it has to provide information about the thing that it's labeling - if two games that both claim to be "Fate" (as in, they're claiming to be the same game, not just randomly picking the same name) have absolutely no commonalities, then I'd argue that the label "Fate" is meaningless.
That doesn't mean that a game that has been modified so much that it becomes its own entity is a bad game, or is in any way
Now, I'm definitely more on the side of a game being defined more by its structure and the playstyles and 'needs' it supports well, rather than by specific mechanics. It might be that for you, Aspects + 4dF = Fate, and so regardless of how those basic elements are used, a game with Aspects + 4df is Fate and should be called that.
If you disagree on the specific list of things that I gave, well, I totally expect that.
Also, I'll respond to your post with more on this, but I really don't intend this to be a "must have checklist", and if a game doesn't do all of these things then it's "NOT FATE OMG YUR DOIN IT RONG!" I expect that most Fate builds will vary in some ways, and not include every point I list above.
+Gabriel Whitehead: "I hate the D&D system and would have more fun coming as close to emulating D&D as FAE will allow me."
I think it's likely that you just don't care about the things D&D does well. It probably wasn't a good fit for the type of game you want in the first place.
+PK Sullivan: "Could you unpack the thought about "final skills" a bit?"
Sure: https://plus.google.com/communities/117231873544673522940/s/fate%20doesn't%20go%20to%20eleven
+Aaron Hendrix: Those are great posts. They seem to mostly be approaching it from a mechanics view, as opposed to what I'm doing here in terms of a gameplay experience view.
+Paul Kießhauer: "Just the idea to spend the whole first session creating the setting and the characters together is a big part of what makes Fate great to me."
Yeah, that's kind of what I meant in talking about the Phase Trio, though I should have expanded that further into the collaborative setting/character creation thing as a whole.
+Phil Lewis: "I think there's room for drift all over the place, though, and maybe some interesting games to be made..."
Absolutely. The list isn't intended to be a 100% must have checklist. It's more like "things which are Fate-like". If you hit 90% of them, your game is probably going to "feel like Fate" to me.
If you hit 20% of them, it may or may not "feel like Fate", which is a totally orthogonal question to "is this an awesome game or not?"
I'm also kind of saying that at some point of hacking, you end up with something that's just kind of not-Fate. Which isn't a good or a bad thing. It's just a thing. Much like Risk and Go are both abstract wargames, and I could certainly house-rule them to include aspects of the other. But at some point, they stop becoming recognizably Risk or Go, and become their own thing with its own identity.
And that's totally awesome in its own way.
https://plus.google.com/115504455551379496135/posts/gRzkq8b2mqp
My Issue with Ryan is that it came off as extremely judgmental.,
The former is true, the latter isn't -- particularly in that mastery of Fate is more akin to mastery of certain storytelling techniques (like narrative beats for compels) rather than mastery of mechanical situation. There's still something to master, though.
In the end, with regard to all of these discussions, I sometimes feel that there is as much animosity (not by you, but by some) from those who feel that people should play systems that are built to do the thing they want to do toward those who feel that their pet system can do anything as good as or better than systems built to do those things, as vice-versa.
While I am currently of the mind set to use FAE for all things, I have played enough systems to know what they do best...and I often do care about those things. I can't, however, get passed the things I don't care for (classes, levels, spell lists, dice pools, skill lists and rules, equipment lists and rules, hit points, death spirals, too many fiddly bits, etc.), which at times could be what the system is good at. Basically, FAE is the most perfect system FOR ME that I have seen.
With that said, I do enjoy one-shots with other systems, especially at game days and conventions. I also like gaming with friends (I am currently in a weekly D&D game and a monthly Shadowrun game...yes, I dislike both systems).
Finally, I not only appreciate diversity in game systems and supplements, but encourage continued growth, for a few reasons (love of the hobby being the biggest reason).
In other news, this post rambled well beyond the length I thought it would reach...