Boom!

Now throw down the tablets onto those Fate heathens golden calf and smite the nonbe-er what? Hold on...(reding the post again)...Oh! You are NOT a prophet from on high.

well, carry on then.

I've heard this once or twice in hangouts directly from +Robert Hanz . Yet, everytime I hear it, it kind of snaps my head back on one thing or another I was "stuck" on. I come back to the realization that FATE is different than other games. It's come in handy looking at other games too, because Rob doesn't just look at how something works, but why it works the way it does. And, if you give him half a chance, he's more than willing to pull you down the rabbit hole with him.

That is great stuff to read. And yes, more fun is the entire point. Not at the expense of anything else, alongside - "this also".

Yeah, seriously Rob, you have a way of describing your analysis that is excellent. I am quite good at analyzing stuff, but when I try to explain it to someone else they just look at me like am crazy. You are able to describe your process so well that it becomes difficult to misapprehend what you are saying. This is a good thing. I may know how and why something is. You can explain how and why. This is a good thing.

Nice post. I share many of your thoughts... still, I need MORE feats (ehm, stunts) to really enjoy a Fate game. 'cause I like characters really different in play (and not just "in fiction"). Some sort of "class niche"... and no, I don't like a loose system to "create my stunts". I hope to get a lot of ready to play stunts and extras soon :D

Bingo, +Bruce Baugh.  And that's why I want Fate to be different, too.  I don't really want just another way to play D&D.  Not that D&D isn't cool (it's one of the systems I've spent the most on this year), but just because... hey, I'd rather have a different game, instead.  And I don't know of a whole ton of games in the same niche Fate is in (Cortex+ seems to come closest).

+Andrea Parducci stunts are a very small part of what makes a character unique. The biggest part is the aspects of the character. That is what really separates the unique from teh clone. Stunts do help though. I will need to think on this.

If I can ask, +Andrea Parducci, is the lack of distinction something you're feeling during play, or during character creation?

I've been running a FATE fantasy game in the old (like Avalon Hill 3rd edition old) RuneQuest setting. I got to keep all of the rich background, storylines, and used FATE for the system. I really like how FATE doesn't get in the way of the story.

@Robert: I feel that during play, 'cause I (and most of my players) like the "role" part in role-play, althogh we enjoy to see in play some tasty "feat", legacy of crunchier systems. In short, my players get easily tired of: "I'm REALLY strong as a giant" +2, "Yeah, but I'm a trained Acrobat" +2, "But I'm also "The son of Hal-Hugg" +2 etc.

We really need something like "...but I have Pure Iron stunt, that let me throw you out of the scene with a f***ing powerful punch!!!" ... and the thing ends here, 'cause the other player have a totally different stunt that it's useful in other moments of play, not here.
We need stunts that bends rules, that help to define a character... come on, you can't just hope to differentiate charaters with just a bunch of aspects. Even in a "old gen" system we wrote a story of our characters, THEN we built'em trying to suit the description thru numbers and special features that really made'em "unique". 
A barbarian tank is a barbarian tank not just for his Melee +4 and the aspect "barbarian tank", he need something like "spend a fate point and slay a dozen of mooks". Conversely now he is not so different from a "shady thief" with Melee +3. That thief should have something like "spend a fate point and you can remove an unaware enemy from the battlefield (free hiding it in a nearby place)". Now he is different from the barbarian.
In short, I have few time to create an evocative list of those nice stunts, AND I don't like the "eyeballling" method in RpG systems. I'm not saying I need a list of 90 feats for a warrior, but I really need a good number of "powers", that with the right trappings can help to emulate special effects you can see in movies, books, videogames etc.

I have great espectactions for Fate Core, although untill now I feel it's less usable for my group than Apocalypse World, while this one is not really "generic", so it's hardly adaptable, or Cortex+ (Smallville/Leverage/Marvel are easily hackerable, although I have a Fate love inside me...).

Well, I for one am a bit cautious around stunts that let you just Take Out an opponent with no resistance.  I also don't remember seeing a ton of those in D&D 3.x or 4e, so I'm assuming that your descriptions are more color than mechanic :)

Why wouldn't most of these work as stunts, though?  A stunt to allow the barbarian to do extra damage to mooks and/or be more effective when attacking multiple opponents seems to be pretty much in line.  Why I'd be hesitant to allow an "insta-kill" stunt for the thief (except against mooks), I could certainly see a stunt allowing for extra stress to be done when attacking from a stealthed position.  I'd personally try to look for something beyond just damage adds, which seems to be what most of what you're saying really boils down to, but that's totally personal preference.  I'm pretty sure that in at least some previous games (SotC/DFRPG, mostly) I've seen a number of stunts in line with your examples.

I wouldn't personally create a list of such stunts, because 90% of them won't be used, so I certainly can't blame you for not wanting to.  Is your concern here that you don't feel that there are sufficient guidelines/examples towards creating stunts?  Or that they feel more "official" if there's a list up front?  Or that you and your fellow players like going through lists and putting things together rather than making up what you want?  If you're really wanting a list of more stunts, I have to admit I find that a bit ironic since I've seen previous Evil Hat Fate games come under criticism for providing too many stunts and devoting too much book space to them.

As far as the aspect use you describe, as a GM I'd ask the players to narrate how the aspects help.  "I'm a trained acrobat!" wouldn't probably be sufficient.  "I'm a trained acrobat, so I nimbly backflip over the Ogre's clumsy blow" would work, though.  Use of aspects should generally add to the color and scene, not just give a bonus.  Fate is pretty boring as a pure numbers game.  Also, players working together through uses of Create Advantage, and passing the free invocations along can spice up conflicts and make them more interesting, as well as more efficient.

Also, for me Fate's not a super awesome tactical combat system.  I wouldn't personally use it for a game that was heavy on tactical combat (as I said above, I'd probably lean towards GURPS or Savage Worlds for that, maybe D&D 4e depending on what I was going for).  I find Fate combat interesting, but for different reasons... Fate point usage acts as an interesting bidding mechanic, so combat becomes more about "who wants it more" and less about "who can strategize better".  Where Fate really shines, to me, is in pushing the story along and in interesting, unexpected ways.  Even compels in combat can make the story go in a different way than expected :)

But I totally get where you're coming from.  My first game of Spirit of the Century went a lot like that, exacerbated by the higher default stress tracks, and while it was entertaining, I can definitely see where there were some bits lacking, especially with the repetitive aspect use.

Have your players also used Create Advantage to any great extent?  Have you played with the narrative reality of those advantages, or just viewed them as floating bonuses?  That was another thing that I kind of failed at my first few runs through the system.

Please don't take this comment as anything except for asking questions and offering suggestions, btw.

One of us!

We have a lot in common Robert, I too started with the Moldvay Basic D&D about 32 years ago, and have a long history actually playing more traditional games, but always interested in more narrative systems.  2 of the most influential for me were Castle Falkenstein (the game that introduced me to "steampunk fantasy" and the narrative creation of characters formed by asking questions), and Adventure!, with its system of Dramatic Editing (my introduction to the idea of players being able to momentarily take over for the GM and describe a part of the setting or world to their advantage, such as "There IS a secret door here after all!", to use your example).

One of the things I love about Fate is that it is NOT just a fully narrative system, but a marriage of traditional game elements (skills and stunts) to the narrative aspects.  That allows each group to emphasize what they are most comfortable with.  If you want, you can play mostly as a traditional system and use aspects sparingly, as you would Karma in MSH or Hero Points in DC Adventures, with few compels to resupply them and simply a boost when it's vital.  Or you could go the other way and play up the aspects and narrative so much that the swarm of Fate points flying around the table makes the skill and stunt rankings almost meaningless.  That flexibility allows it to appeal to a wider audience than it otherwise might if it were all one or the other.  It also makes it a great base to hack from and subtly shift and mold in your desired direction and flavor without a great deal of effort.

Yeah, Fate is very much an outgrowth of an omnivorous attitude towards the RPG hobby. We've found a lot to like in all the styles of games out there.

I've never gotten to play Fate yet and likely won't for some time. I keep reading all these great posts though and it excites me for trying it. What I wish is there was an archive of all these for when I'm gonna need them a few years from now when I actually get to try it out.

Wondering if there could be some kind of community based archive of all the good stuff you (and many of the other discussants) keep putting out to explain these concepts and how they work...

Big List Of stuff

http://walkninginshadows.blogspot.com/2013/02/fate-core-important-links.html

also there is the fate Wiki, but i am not smart enough for it

"In a lot of cases, deviating from those slightly doesn't work, as those games tend to sit on "local maxima" - areas where the decisions made work together in a tight, interlocked way."

Yes, this. Very, very important.

(not just in gaming, either!)

easier to see in gaming.

+Robert Hanz Of course, my examples was really shortened, 'cause I have few time and my wall of text was big enough. Obviously I don't want insta-kills in the game (although in other games, they are present and well played - look your NPC in a crosshair, the RpG Guru told), they was just examples to clarify my point of view.

Just to give another example, what I need is a polished/upgraded version of Legend of Anglerre (that I own, and played/mastered before). In Anglerre there are a ton of useful things, but they aren't well blended together, also it miss the "new gen" concepts of time broken in turn/scene/sessions, or a nice system to "do things when players miss the roll".

Side note: Anglerre, SoTC, SoF, DF etc. ARE Fate, so please don't look at me thinking "here another D&D fanboy", I never owned a D&D book. I need a "better" Fate. So I didn't appreciate that "One of us!" of +Fred Hicks , I hope I missunderstood it. On the contrary, it would be some "we against them", that I don't feel as polite attitude.
Respect.

As one of the writers of Legends of Anglerre, I can attest that the various writers often had different takes on how best to handle some things in Fate.  Look at the recent thread here asking how to track food in a post-apoc game, and all the ways that were offered.  There is no one right way, and so very, very many possible ways.  Now change the question from something as relatively simple as tracking food supplies to the question "How do we handle as much of the fantasy genre as possible in Fate?"  How many different answers will you get to THAT question, and every sub-category under it from finding treasure to casting spells to weapon and armor rules and so much more? 

We had epic-long conversations about all those questions and everyone had at least 1 or more suggestions on ways to handle things.  It was a cornucopia of ideas and methods.  I would thus look at Anglerre as a toolkit of ideas and ways of doing things, a variety of examples on how to possibly handle fantasy in Fate, more than I would a completely unified and doggedly internally consistent RPG like you might get from a single author with a clear vision of what he or she wants to do and how to do it. 

Considering all the writers have moved on to other projects, like Achtung Cthulhu, Mindjammer, Atomic Robo, etc, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a new Anglerre.  Instead, mine it for ideas and change whatever you don't care for, Fate is eminently hackable and adaptable, so give it a try!

+Tom Miskey Thanks for your input. I understand Fate could have different souls - from FAE to Core vanilla to some crunchier future versions. My take is:
Today, fate is really hackable IF you have lot of time, and my real life interferes with that. Taken as it is now-"vanilla"-it's a little bit bland system (for me, of course).

What I do is ponder how to do something throughout the day, jotting down notes or emailing myself a sentence or 2 when I have a good idea, and then at the end of the day try to compile those ideas into a few more detailed but still very rough notes.  Repeat until you think you've narrowed it down to where you like it and then write it more precisely on a weekend or evening sometime (since this is almost entirely just working through your thoughts during the day, such as while driving to work or while eating lunch, you can do other stuff and still hack Fate at the same time).  I have a day job and family responsibilities too, I know how much it can cut into game and hacking time, but it need not stop you completely.

Also how much time a hack takes depends very much on how much time you are willing to give to hacking. I have made hacks at the table with the rest of my group, took only twenty minutes for the basics, then we just refined and added as the sessions went on. Then there were hacks that altered the fundamentals of the game. That took a lot longer. I am on my third month monkeying around with My magi hack and i am only now beginning to see the end of it. Fate is very hackable, and yet that very feature can make a hack go quick if you are willing to stick to the core of your idea.

As far as Fate Core being bland or vanilla - man, that is just something I can't relate to at all. Bland is the one thing I don't get out of it. I do know some folks have said they've enjoyed games with me more than some other random ones, maybe they can give some insight into what the difference might be, +Jonathan Henry +Cameron Corniuk? Because whether its been tempting characters with cthulhoid monstrosities, blowing up buildings while sipping a White Russian, or just being an archetypal fantasy thief, Fate Core has been some of the most fun I've had playing RPGs ever.

I don't think I implied it was bland. if I did, that is not what I meant. Maybe you were referencing another post.

I was referring to +Andrea Parducci's post. You didn't imply anything of the sort.

And, +Andrea Parducci, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying that's totally not my experience, and I'm wondering what the difference is between our experiences.

I said Fate came out of an omnivorous attitude (implying "on the part of myself and Rob Donoghue"), not that Fate itself was omnivorous...

... though, yeah, that graphic... kinda that.

... well, that would explain where my books went.