Fate Core Thought of the Day: Why the Heck am I Doing This?
Okay, no big reveal (I'm actually working for Evil Hat! Muahahaha) or anything of the sort. But I've put a lot of time into some of these posts, and I'd like to just point out why I'm doing this. I mean, at the end of the day, this is just an RPG, a fun way to kill some time.
I'm a long term gamer. Been playing for over thirty years now, started with Moldvay D&D. I've played a plethora of systems. I've worked with famous industry folks, though I certainly am not a "famous industry folk" myself.
My mindset is pretty fully old-school. Yay, character death, and difficulty, and earning the awesome. If you had asked me a year ago if it would make sense for a character to find a secret door that wasn't on the map, just because they'd rolled well, I'd ask if you were crazy. If you told me a year ago that I'd advocate not killing characters without a discussion, I'd ask you to share your stash. (BTW, I'd still maintain those statements, for certain types of games!)
I started Fate with SotC and DFRPG. And... it was a learning curve. There were things I just wasn't getting, and I knew it. But I liked enough of what was going on, and liked enough of Fate (my previous foray into more narrative systems had been Burning Wheel) that I stuck with it. And the biggest issue, over and over again, was the fact that I was unconsciously trying to make Fate act like a more traditional system.
Where were the attributes? Where were the things you put together? How the heck did it make sense to have an aspect Really Strong, yet it only came into play on occasion? This is madness!
But I stuck with it. I read the books, I played with folks that got it (Hi, +Jacob Poss!). I read responses from the gurus on this community (more than I care to name... most of you know who you are!).
At first, it was a few bits here and there that came together that were just awesome. And then, at some point, something clicked. It came together. I got it. "Fiction, not physics" became more than a cute catchphrase meaning that fun was more important than realism. I stopped looking for more systems. The airplanes-as-stunts in Kriegszeppelin Valkyrie made sense. The importance of the Phase Trio clicked, and it wasn't just party cohesion.
When it all came together, I found a new way to play RPGs. A way that's pretty awesome, and not very much like the D&D I played when I was 10.
Now, don't get me wrong - I still like other ways of playing. I've got no problem with a goold old fashioned dungeon crawl, or a set of tactical set piece encounters with some story/investigation bits between them. I've had a heck of a lot of fun over the years playing those games, and I'm sure I'll have more in the years to come. I want to run an X-COM game at some point, and it almost certainly won't be in Fate (GURPS and Savage Worlds are the frontrunners atm).
And that's what these posts are about - detailing my realizations, and throwing them out there to maybe help other people that are struggling to come to grips with the same things I came to grips with. So if I post something like, "Fate doesn't have a damage system," don't take that as the prophet on the mount making a proclamation. I'm not into the holy prophet thing, given that the fashion choices are terrible and the life expectancy is generally worse. Instead, take it as me going, "Holy shit! I just realized, this game doesn't have a damage system! It thinks about the results of combat in an almost totally different way! That's crazy cool!"
So that's what these posts are about. Trying to help others look at Fate with a bit of "beginner's mind," and seeing it through eyes not trained by years of gaming in other systems. It's about helping others to find the things that I find awesome in the system. It's not about telling people they're doing things "wrong" - there's no Fate Police ready to knock down doors, the last I checked. If you're having fun, as far as you're concerned, you're doing it right. It's about sharing the things that I've discovered about the system when I stopped trying to shove its square peg into a round hole.
And I'll say, doing that is tough. We've got a lot of things in traditional gaming that work, and make for awesome games. In a lot of cases, deviating from those slightly doesn't work, as those games tend to sit on "local maxima" - areas where the decisions made work together in a tight, interlocked way. But I think Fate sits on a very different local maximum than most games, and to find it you've gotta change a lot of assumptions, and be willing to approach it like it was the very first game you've played. I've found it to be worth it, and so I want to share what I've learned to help others find that same awesome.
And if you're interested, come on along for the journey. Share your insights with me, and I'll happily share mine with you. If not, hell, maybe we'll get together and play a game that sits in a different area, and have fun doing that.
20130409 Fate Core Thought of the Day’ Why the...
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+1'd by: Emmanuel Papst (EmP), Christoph Thill, Juanma Barranquero, Tim Noyce, Dave Cockburn, Oliver Graf, Chris “Callisto” B, Christopher Allen, Adam Schwaninger, Christopher Dyszelski, Mike Thompson, Rob Alexander, Grass Dragon (Grassdragon), jason reynolds, Joshua Ramsey, Keith Clendenen, Phil Vecchione, Mark Diaz Truman, Rich Knight, Blue Tyson, Fred Hicks, David Adams, Colin McMillen, Jon Tate, Brett Bowen, JB Bell, Dan Hall, Lee Van Sickle, Rob Meyers, Jim Sandoval, Igor Holland-Moritz, David Vriezen, Ryan M. Danks, Nils Wloka, David Hoberman, Bruce Baugh, Andrea Parducci, Cameron Corniuk, Dennis Rude, Jacob Possin, James Paese, Wil Hutton, Jason Pitre
Now throw down the tablets onto those Fate heathens golden calf and smite the nonbe-er what? Hold on...(reding the post again)...Oh! You are NOT a prophet from on high.
well, carry on then.
We really need something like "...but I have Pure Iron stunt, that let me throw you out of the scene with a f***ing powerful punch!!!" ... and the thing ends here, 'cause the other player have a totally different stunt that it's useful in other moments of play, not here.
We need stunts that bends rules, that help to define a character... come on, you can't just hope to differentiate charaters with just a bunch of aspects. Even in a "old gen" system we wrote a story of our characters, THEN we built'em trying to suit the description thru numbers and special features that really made'em "unique".
A barbarian tank is a barbarian tank not just for his Melee +4 and the aspect "barbarian tank", he need something like "spend a fate point and slay a dozen of mooks". Conversely now he is not so different from a "shady thief" with Melee +3. That thief should have something like "spend a fate point and you can remove an unaware enemy from the battlefield (free hiding it in a nearby place)". Now he is different from the barbarian.
In short, I have few time to create an evocative list of those nice stunts, AND I don't like the "eyeballling" method in RpG systems. I'm not saying I need a list of 90 feats for a warrior, but I really need a good number of "powers", that with the right trappings can help to emulate special effects you can see in movies, books, videogames etc.
I have great espectactions for Fate Core, although untill now I feel it's less usable for my group than Apocalypse World, while this one is not really "generic", so it's hardly adaptable, or Cortex+ (Smallville/Leverage/Marvel are easily hackerable, although I have a Fate love inside me...).
Why wouldn't most of these work as stunts, though? A stunt to allow the barbarian to do extra damage to mooks and/or be more effective when attacking multiple opponents seems to be pretty much in line. Why I'd be hesitant to allow an "insta-kill" stunt for the thief (except against mooks), I could certainly see a stunt allowing for extra stress to be done when attacking from a stealthed position. I'd personally try to look for something beyond just damage adds, which seems to be what most of what you're saying really boils down to, but that's totally personal preference. I'm pretty sure that in at least some previous games (SotC/DFRPG, mostly) I've seen a number of stunts in line with your examples.
I wouldn't personally create a list of such stunts, because 90% of them won't be used, so I certainly can't blame you for not wanting to. Is your concern here that you don't feel that there are sufficient guidelines/examples towards creating stunts? Or that they feel more "official" if there's a list up front? Or that you and your fellow players like going through lists and putting things together rather than making up what you want? If you're really wanting a list of more stunts, I have to admit I find that a bit ironic since I've seen previous Evil Hat Fate games come under criticism for providing too many stunts and devoting too much book space to them.
As far as the aspect use you describe, as a GM I'd ask the players to narrate how the aspects help. "I'm a trained acrobat!" wouldn't probably be sufficient. "I'm a trained acrobat, so I nimbly backflip over the Ogre's clumsy blow" would work, though. Use of aspects should generally add to the color and scene, not just give a bonus. Fate is pretty boring as a pure numbers game. Also, players working together through uses of Create Advantage, and passing the free invocations along can spice up conflicts and make them more interesting, as well as more efficient.
Also, for me Fate's not a super awesome tactical combat system. I wouldn't personally use it for a game that was heavy on tactical combat (as I said above, I'd probably lean towards GURPS or Savage Worlds for that, maybe D&D 4e depending on what I was going for). I find Fate combat interesting, but for different reasons... Fate point usage acts as an interesting bidding mechanic, so combat becomes more about "who wants it more" and less about "who can strategize better". Where Fate really shines, to me, is in pushing the story along and in interesting, unexpected ways. Even compels in combat can make the story go in a different way than expected :)
But I totally get where you're coming from. My first game of Spirit of the Century went a lot like that, exacerbated by the higher default stress tracks, and while it was entertaining, I can definitely see where there were some bits lacking, especially with the repetitive aspect use.
Have your players also used Create Advantage to any great extent? Have you played with the narrative reality of those advantages, or just viewed them as floating bonuses? That was another thing that I kind of failed at my first few runs through the system.
Please don't take this comment as anything except for asking questions and offering suggestions, btw.
One of the things I love about Fate is that it is NOT just a fully narrative system, but a marriage of traditional game elements (skills and stunts) to the narrative aspects. That allows each group to emphasize what they are most comfortable with. If you want, you can play mostly as a traditional system and use aspects sparingly, as you would Karma in MSH or Hero Points in DC Adventures, with few compels to resupply them and simply a boost when it's vital. Or you could go the other way and play up the aspects and narrative so much that the swarm of Fate points flying around the table makes the skill and stunt rankings almost meaningless. That flexibility allows it to appeal to a wider audience than it otherwise might if it were all one or the other. It also makes it a great base to hack from and subtly shift and mold in your desired direction and flavor without a great deal of effort.
Wondering if there could be some kind of community based archive of all the good stuff you (and many of the other discussants) keep putting out to explain these concepts and how they work...
http://walkninginshadows.blogspot.com/2013/02/fate-core-important-links.html
also there is the fate Wiki, but i am not smart enough for it
Yes, this. Very, very important.
(not just in gaming, either!)
Just to give another example, what I need is a polished/upgraded version of Legend of Anglerre (that I own, and played/mastered before). In Anglerre there are a ton of useful things, but they aren't well blended together, also it miss the "new gen" concepts of time broken in turn/scene/sessions, or a nice system to "do things when players miss the roll".
Side note: Anglerre, SoTC, SoF, DF etc. ARE Fate, so please don't look at me thinking "here another D&D fanboy", I never owned a D&D book. I need a "better" Fate. So I didn't appreciate that "One of us!" of +Fred Hicks , I hope I missunderstood it. On the contrary, it would be some "we against them", that I don't feel as polite attitude.
Respect.
We had epic-long conversations about all those questions and everyone had at least 1 or more suggestions on ways to handle things. It was a cornucopia of ideas and methods. I would thus look at Anglerre as a toolkit of ideas and ways of doing things, a variety of examples on how to possibly handle fantasy in Fate, more than I would a completely unified and doggedly internally consistent RPG like you might get from a single author with a clear vision of what he or she wants to do and how to do it.
Considering all the writers have moved on to other projects, like Achtung Cthulhu, Mindjammer, Atomic Robo, etc, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a new Anglerre. Instead, mine it for ideas and change whatever you don't care for, Fate is eminently hackable and adaptable, so give it a try!
Today, fate is really hackable IF you have lot of time, and my real life interferes with that. Taken as it is now-"vanilla"-it's a little bit bland system (for me, of course).
And, +Andrea Parducci, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying that's totally not my experience, and I'm wondering what the difference is between our experiences.
... though, yeah, that graphic... kinda that.